Mitchell: The Great Debate
The other day on MLB.com, they posed an interesting question to fans. Who would you put on your baseball Mt. Rushmore? A neat exercise, but as soon as you begin, you realize what you are up against. Four faces to represent the game of baseball? An impossible task, yet it’s one anyone can do and be just as right as anyone else (within reason).
Working in the front office of a baseball team, these discussions come up from time to time, usually in the off season when we are pining for the games to start, or when the news of the day leads into it, such as Hall of Fame voting, major retirement announcements, player deaths.
Top player lists are rivaled only by “Is He a Hall-of-Famer?” debates for their ferocity. You could go to just about any number in the top player lists and the bigger the number, the more room for argument there is. A top 10 or 20 will be filled with names that few could say don’t belong, but the argument is how can you put player A in above or instead of player B. Expand to a top 50 and you have the same problems, but the pool of candidates swells a lot because even though Pete Rose and are likely not on any respectable top 10 list, he’s got to be in the top 50…right? What about admitted PED users? Should a thoroughly feared hitter like Frank Thomas be considered even though he spent half of his time at DH? Should you include pitchers or make a separate list for them? These questions are one of the things that make baseball such a great part of the American landscape. Everyone has their own interpretation of the qualifications and even then, their personal bias can shade opinions. Here’s my top 20 list. I’ve concentrated on just position players and listed them alphabetically. We’ll see if we can get Leo to chime in with a list of his own, then we can argue!
Hank Aaron
Yogi Berra
Barry Bonds
Ty Cobb
Joe DiMaggio
Jimmie Foxx
Lou Gehrig
Rickey Henderson
Rogers Hornsby
Mickey Mantle
Willey Mays
Stan Musial
Albert Pujols
Frank Robinson
Alex Rodriguez
Babe Ruth
Mike Schmidt
Tris Speaker
Honus Wagner
Ted Williams
Feel free to share your top 10 or 20 or 50. With Spring Training here, baseball talk is back!
Ryan Mitchell & Scott Leo
If I had to limit it to four like on Mt. Rushmore, I would choose, like Borglum did, the pioneers of the game. From left to right: Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Jackie Robinson and Walter Johnson. Maybe you could put some more modern era players on the other side of the mountain, but I think those four are the foundation of the game we love today.
If I were to edit your list of 20, I’d replace Schmidt with Brooks Robinson, Foxx with Cal Ripken, Pujols with Walter Johnson and A-Rod with Jackie Robinson, Speaker for Nolan Ryan and maybe Barroyd Bonds for Steve Carlton. If we weren’t judging on post-playing-career immorality, I’d put Rose in there for Wagner.
Do you think Berra was better than Bench?
Leo will claim heresey, but I take Berra over Bench by a nose. More championships 10-2, MVP’s 3-2 (and top 3 MVP finished 6-2), All-Stars, better CS%, better OPS and he has to get points for the yogi-isms. Would I fight somebody who disagreed? No, but you have to pick one over the other. Also, as I mentioned, I didn’t consider pitcher in my list. If I did, some of the names you mentioned would definitely belong.
I love this debate because you can argue so many different ways. I do feel your list is weighted to offensive stats, not complete players. I did notice that you stayed away from 2nd basemen ( Hornsby played there but just as much else where). I am not sure where you factor in defense such as Clemente’s outfield play and over all game, Brooks Robinson’s play at 3rd base, Ozzie smith at short although I do not know how good a fielder Wagner was I would keep him on this list. Shoeless Joe’s Stats don’t lie either. I would also question Berra over Bench even with his world championships.I guess you also would be remiss to leave out a player like Josh Gibson who not only had offensive stats to rival anyone, he played catcher.
This is fun stuff. I think another interesting topic could be all time flakes/characters of the game.
A spectacular defender like Robinson and Smith doesn’t resonate for me when his offense isn’t at least All-Star worthy too. Ozzie hit .262 with a SLG lower than his OBP. Brooks is much easier to argue for. Josh Gibson’s career numbers are tremendous, but hard to quantify in the context of the Majors. I don’t know how to incorporate Negro League players into the discussion properly, so I don’t try. Clemente belongs in the discussion, and that’s why this is so much fun.
I don’t think it’s fair to compare championships (or even MVPs) as any kind of measure of greatness in baseball unless you are talking great teams, especially when comparing modern (post-Flood) era vs. old-timers. Baseball greatness, unlike in other sports, can more easily be judged on individual stats because it’s more about collective individual performances than group cooperation (a guy’s batting average is not affected by others’ hitting and his fielding pct. doesn’t go down when someone doesn’t catch his throw, but you get no assist if the guy misses the layup or open-netter you set him up for). Was Chris Chambliss better than contemporary Rod Carew who had no rings? Or better than Mattingly who suffered through the Yankee drought of the 80′s? I don’t think so. Right place, right time. Put Bench on those 50′s teams and he would have done everything if not more than Yogi did… except the alleged quotes. I’ll give you that.